Vault #6: On Harry/Hermione, Shipping, Fan Entitlement, And More
All right. By now those of you who have read the book know what this vault entry will be about. I know there's been some gnashing of teeth among shippers (yeah, I'm looking at you, Perez Hilton :). So: in Harry, A History, Jo says something about the possibility of Harry/Hermione, which I won't repeat here because, well, it's in the book and that's not for copy/pasting onto the Internet. But here's some extended conversation around that topic. (Again, I've edited some of my comments out unless they directed the parts that are quoted.)
(Update: Someone has asked, "Who's Emerson?" I didn't think that question existed in fandom anymore! OK: Who is Emerson? Such a simple question, such a complicated answer... :) - well, Emerson owns and operates MuggleNet.com. He is a character in Harry, A History, and a character in general. We interviewed J.K. Rowling together on the day of HBP's release in Edinburgh, Scotland. During that interview J.K. Rowling confirmed the Ron/Hermione ship; Emerson called H/H shippers "delusional" and set off a major round of crazy/hilarious activity, depending on how you look at it, within the shipping community. Emerson is my friend and one of the most enterprising people I know, and despite Jo being 100 percent right about him liking a good fight, he happens also to be one of the most gentlemanly. And no. There was no such real thing as Memerson. Ever.)
Enjoy!:
JKR: The moment that Emerson said what he said [in the 2005 interview], on tape, I knew....
The fallout touched me, as well as Emerson. I had some pretty nasty letters but, you know, by that time I'd become used to the fact that people were so invested in this world, and felt such ownership of this world that I was not on a pedestal at all in their eyes, I was right in the thick of the fight. And it's uncomfortable on and off the pedestal, so you get used to it."
MA: You even joked about a shipper leading Emerson down a dark hallway.
[Laughing] Well yeah! I mean, he's totally unapologetic. Emerson enjoys a good fight. I'm not someone who goes looking for a fight, but I am someone who, if a fight comes to me, I will not duck it. So, if people want information on my characters, then they have to accept that I'm going to give them the information on the characters. And if they don't like it, that's the nature of fiction. You have to accept someone else's world because they made that world, so they probably know a little better than you do what goes on there.
I was not at all new to the concept of fan entitlement because that had now been going on since, I think, around 1999. As the Snape Debate hotted up, I would occasionally receive mail from fans that was instructing me on my characters. And you know what, that's very endearing when it comes from a younger person, and it's less endearing when it comes from an older person.
Do you know, it may have even been earlier. I remember getting a letter in the late 1990s, from an American woman who had heard me say on the radio when I had been in the States that I think it is a lie not to allow my characters, as they are plainly getting a year older with every book, not to allow my characters some sexual feelings. Although a fantasy series is not, I think, really the place, to explore issues of, for instance, the use of hard drugs or teenage pregnancy. To be ramming those social messages down people's throats when there are other social messages within the Harry Potter books, felt incongruous. But still, it was unrealistic that Harry was going to proceed from the age of 11 to the age of 17 never having kissed a girl, never having had any kind of romantic feelings towards girls, is as much as I said on this radio program. That was probably the first evidence I had, of that kind of fan entitlement: a very vehement letter from a mother saying, "Do not do this. I want your books as a refuge for my children, as a place of innocence and security." And I felt, well, listen: this series started with the knowledge of a double murder. I never promised that this a world of innocence and security. Quite the reverse. I announced it as a world of danger and corruption. So, probably, that was my very first introduction.
MA: The shipping debacle was...something else.
JKR: Did you get touched by that?
MA: I came out least scathed. I got touched, though; some people said some pretty vicious things.
JKR: You know what? I kind of got an overview of that, because right after we met, we went on holiday, and I came back to snail mail about it and you know what? You can normally tell by the snail mail what must have gone on online.
It is unhealthy for me to go online too much. I'm very aware that you could spend your life reading message boards, and that's a very unhealthy place to go. So I'm really quite sparing in how often I go and look. But just from what I had in front of me - and from fans saying to me "Please don't take to heart too much what was on the message boards!" [Laughter] So, you know, I knew what really must have happened on the message boards.
MA: Emerson got compared to a slave owner!
JKR: Oh, it's just ludicrous. I had a letter from a grown man, a very articulate letter, who said, "Well, pardon me for thinking that you're a better writer than you are." That's literally what he said. "I assumed you were giving us subtle hints about Harry and Hermione, but no. Turned out you were being really crass and obvious." What are you going to do? This is what I mean by 'slightly less endearing.' [Laughter]
MA: If that's slightly less endearing, I wonder what very less endearing is...
JKR: Yeah. We could go there, but I don't know.
MA: I don't think we have that kind of time.
I know, I know JKR paired Ron with Hermione already!
But I still PREFER Harry x Hermione
My Mom gave me Harry, A History for Christmas. She wrote me a card, in her beautiful handwriting, and asked me if I remember getting Sorcerers Stone so many Christmas's ago.
' I knew you would like it and I was concerned about you '
She ended her card with telling me how proud she is that I'm her son and how I turned out.
I got choked up.
So with the very good there is the really bad.
I never was a big fandom guy. I came in a little after HBP, during this "ship" time.
I learned what a ginger was.
That girl wrote that they want Hermione to be stuck with that gingerboy.
And me not knowing what that was and being told. Red hair.
Then telling I have red hair and am a guy and not understanding what she was talking about.
Then the laughter, all those LOL's.
Then somebody explaining it to me and not knowing if they were saying what she said was dirty and nasty or having red hair was.
Real disgusting that was and it burnt me off the fandom for along time.
But Harry Potter is bigger than any fan and this July we get to see more, really see it.
The Fat Lady telling Harry---you'll see---and him walking in the common room so worried.
Then learning that his captainship won Gryffindor the Cup.
And Ginny running to him, all ablaze and holding him, and Harry kissing her like he never kissed a girl before.
And Hermione beaming.
And Ron's nod---if you must.
Hermione sending a flock of birds to 'peck' dear sweet Ron, since he loves to be pecked by girls.
And Hermione at Ron's bedside in the hospital wing.
Dumbledore's funeral and Hermione crying in Ron's arms, and Ron trying to hold back his tears.
And Harry looking and having to tell Ginny the truth, because he really loves her.
Then the biggest SHIP of all.
Mr Ronald Weasley, Miss Hermione Granger and Mr Harry James Potter.
We are coming with you, where-ever you are going mate.
We had time to turn back, now didn't we Harry?
You know its amazing to me that so long after the shipping wars finished, so many people still have very little idea of what the post-HBP fall-out was about.
It is absolutely true that for many shippers the size of the reaction to the Melissa-Emerson-JKR interview was directly proportional to the amount of investment they had in the Harry Potter characters and story.
It is also true that many over-reacted and many ugly things were said. Things that shouldn't have been said.
But I find it staggering, that even with so much time past, Melissa doesn't seem to have any more insight into how she and Emerson may have contributed to that ugliness than she did then. I might be misjudging as I haven't read the book, but from the comments in the extract on this page, you'd be forgiven for thinking that as far as Melissa was concerned the attacks on her and Emerson came out of nowhere.
Crazy and Hilarious? No. Try hurtful, bewildering, ridiculous. In fact, it sent many people out of the fandom for good in what I can only say was the worst case of cyber-bullying I've personally witnessed.
Did JKR deserve the hate she got. No, she didn't. Is the comparison of Emerson to a slave owner logical. Not in any way. But these things didn't happen in isolation. A group of people didn't just suddenly become ridiculous and overwrought. There was a spark that lit the fire and that spark was being misrepresented and insulted in a public way, on masse, before their favourite author.
Put yourself in their position for just one moment. Imagine that your only direct link to your favourite author was through two people and that in their interview with said author you were misrepresented (all H/Hr shippers did NOT hate Ron), insulted repeatedly and with great humour and then told to re-read books you'd spent the last five years going through with a fine tooth comb.
The resulting mess was hurtful for a lot of people and I can't help but feel, to this day, that it could have in large part been avoided if only the interviewers had found a more mature way to discuss the issue. Emerson might like a fight but the results speak for themselves. Had the H/Hr ship been sunk gracefully I doubt you would have seen the fall-out you got.
(For example, is the Hall of Shame really necessary? Who does it serve to be so prejudicial in who you decide to paint as ridiculous? Certainly not the fandom.)
The fact that this issue still gets spoken about as if only one group of people are to blame is seriously strange.
All the best.
To me the chapters where Ron is gone are distinctly unromantic in their grief and despair. They serve a purpose, they DO bring Harry and Hermione closer together but not in a romantic sense. I believe JKR's words were that they share some intense moments and feelings (visiting the grave of Harry's parents, being attacked by Nagini, the breaking of the wand and Rita Skeeter's 'revelations' about Dumbledore.)
The tense moments where Jo, if she had chosen to, COULD have allowed the characters to seek more than just platonic comfort in each other are only just that. Jo never went down that path, she let Harry and Hermione deepen their already strong brother-sister bond but she also makes it perfectly clear that without Ron they were broken.
'After you left,' he said in a low voice, grateful for the fact that Ron's face was hidden, 'she cried for a week. Probably longer, only she didn't want me to see. There were loads of nights when we never even spoke to each other. With you gone...'
He could not finish; it was only now that Ron was here again that Harry fully realised how much his absence had cost them.
'She's like my sister,' he went on. 'I love her like a sister and I reckon she feels the same way about me. It's always been like that. I thought you knew.'
I don't believe that Harry's lying, do you?
Yay! It sounds like HaH may have some clues to one of the few questions I never heard asked after DH came out, and the one I really wanted to know the answer to - did anything go on between Harry and Hermione after Ron left?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a shipper - it all just seemed to be building up to some sort of awkward, brief, `oops, that shouldn't have happened' moment, which was really intriguing - and frankly, for three close friends with raging hormones, more realistic than the situation being totally clear cut.
I loved the book, thanks for the extra stuff Melissa!!
Oh the shipping wars!, I never really saw where it came from, and honestly I don't see a pull between Harry and Hermione in DH... I did feel those moments (pointed out in the book, which I shall not name not to spoil it for others) were emotionally charged for both of them, but I never felt any sexual tension underneath, it was more a need, Harry's need for fraternal love, I'm latin and we hug and kiss all the time, I've always thought that the trio is weird like that, but I'm not Brittish I suppose physical affection is not that common there hence the "Brittish boys don't do that!" (quote from Jo) but I think, though I express it very inarticulately, that because they are so loving in a non-affectionate way (i.e.: hugs, kisses -innocent ones- touching -again not gross kind-) it charges a little more those few moments when there is physical contact.
I always though Ron and Hermione were perfect for each other, I just see the cute bickering as an obvious sign of -you-exasperate-me-but-I-love-you-anyway, that is so common when opposites attract.. and I knew from COS when Ron gets slug burping and shouts So Hermione's OK! that those two were fated to be together!!
Ginny I didn't like back then (COS) but she is the only one confident enough and understanding enough to reach Harry when he goes into those dark spaces of self struggle.. and there's also when the prince rescued the princess moment in COS, so cute, watching her cry from the train (PS) and also when the princess rescues him back (HBP).... I think the pairing is great in the books I respect people wanting other pairings I just don't see them..
I agree Ron gets shunted all the time by people (and I hate that I love Ron he's really a great loving guy -yes I know he's not real, but he is to me), I think the movies have helped that way, portraing him slower and more scared of everything than he really is, giving his lines to Hermione (like in POA if you want to get Harry you have to go through us -paraphrasing-) someone posted he's based on what he sees, and I think that's right he is a great guy who's also been through a lot, he deserves his bushy haired, bossy, bickering wife! just like mom and dad right?
I think now that the story has been told, it's time to let it go and just respect other people's views... (though' I did crack up when Emerson put up the Harmony wall of shame..hiiillllariouuuus!!)
Loved the book!!!
Update on the site?
Melissa,
Just finished reading your book a few days ago. I just had to comment on how enjoyable it is. Everyone who loves Harry Potter should definitely read it. My favorite part was the book signing of Deathly Hallows. You describe a stellar moment when a young fan who was reading in line actually gets up to JKR. That one anecdote alone is worth the price of the book. Awesome!
It is amazing how many people's lives have been enriched and changed by these books and the fandom that has evolved. Keep up the excellent work. I hope someday I can get mine signed by the author herself.
i only gonna say that i will always support harry/hermione even if someone calls me delusional!!
harmonian forever xD
Thanks so much for including this extra bit here, Melissa. I remember when Leaky did the interview with Jo after DH, I had the sense you were right on the verge of discussing shipping, but never actually got there. This is the stuff I was really curious about, so thanks so much for sharing.
For me, I became a very ardent H/G shipper after OotP. I kept seeing Ginny's name in so many scenes that had nothing to do with her that it made me sit up and think "Harry's noticing this girl." HBP felt like vindication, and I was thrilled with it.
Now, the one part I would still like to hear is Jo's version of thier reunion after the battle.
Melissa! I love the shipping parts of the book. Mostly because although I had been a devoted harry potter fan since about 1999, I had no idea what shipping was. I just followed the canon and figured all would be revealed later(when it came to shipping, on other subjects I was less patient). I read a lot of fan fiction, was obsessed with the movies and visited the news sites occasionally. I didn't even know what the term "shipping" meant until you and Emerson interviewed Jo. I had to look it up.
Your book was very illuminating, I discovered a whole part of the fandom that was going on right under my noise, while I was more concerned with the more mysterious and darker parts of the books. (I was obsessed with Snape, and intrigued by Lily and the Marauders).
Most of the shipping you wrote about is interesting, intense and frankly down right disturbing (Memerson? really? I thought that was just an Aprils fools joke. Scarry. Really really freaky)
I guess, if I were to label myself, I have always been a canon shipper, so R/H and H/G by default, though mostly I was a L/J supporter because they were an already established couple. If H/H had really happened I would have probably been upset for a couple hours, then I would have started pondering about Snape again.
P.S. Just in case I didn't make it clear, I really loved Harry, A History.
I am all for R/H, but I have always been able to see where H/H shippers were coming from. Then again, after reading Emerson's Harmony wall of shame, I'm not so sure... haha
LOVE the book Melissa!
I think a lot of people miss the fact that Ron IS clever and that Hermione is NOT always right. Hermione is exceptionally intelligent of course, but her knowledge is mostly based on being able to remember and process a lot of written information. Ron's views are mostly based on real life observations. Both sources have their limitations (Compare their attitudes to S.P.E.W; Hermione sees a principle (slavery) that is wrong and wants to correct it, Ron sees the actual behaviour and preferences of the house elfs and doesn't see the need for change. Neither of them is completely wrong).
Hermione draws the right conclusion about the problems they're facing most of the time, but she doesn't necessarily know when to stop pointing that out. This is where Ron's strength comes in. He's intuitive (something Hermione is NOT) and knows when to just let things be rather than harping on about what should have been or ought to be like Hermione. I think that, as the two get older, this means that they will balance each other very nicely.
I also think that while Ron isn't as verbal as Hermione, or as good at make sense of difficult reading material, he has no problem understanding her. The fact that he, in his blunt way, doesn't accept what she says on face value doesn't mean he's dumb!
Your book has to be good, all the stores have it!
I have to admit I was surprised how the Ron - Harry - Hermione relationships turned out in Deathly Harrows. It was not at all what I had been expecting. I knew that Ginny was Harry's Girl right from Chamber of Secrets - she is the damsel he rescues from the dragon, so of course they are paired. (This is Fairy Tale stuff but at this point they are children; and the Fairy Tale symbolises somthing for when they grow up.)
I had expected Ron to be killed in the last battle, not Fred. Then when Harry married Ginny he would have in some way "replaced" Ron in the Weasley family and become completely integrated into the Wizarding World.
I recognised the romantic attraction between Ron & Hermione quite early on, but bluntly didn't think he was good enough for her, not clever enough for them to marry and make a success of it. Yes, he grew up a lot in DH but I am still not wholly convinced it would survive as a really happy marriage.
I had envisaged a broken-hearted Hermione remaining single - not a soured spinster but simply a woman who didn't want to compromise with second best. I also thought she might become a really distinguished headmistress of Hogwarts.
How wrong can you be ?
i really wanna read this book ... i live in mexico ... i hope i get it soon, maybe i'll buy it at amazon or something i need this book!! haha
melissa reading all the comments and all the suff i'm pretty sure that your book is awesome i can't wait to read it!!
Jo thanks for all the magic
oh btw i'm a harmony shipper xD
You think after 7 years, Harry would have felt something about Hermione by now. But he didn't. When Ron is not around, Harry finds hanging with Hermione a bit boring. Sure they can have some fun, but she's always focused on studies, and if she's truely heart broken by Ron, they don't speak it all. I don't see any romance in their relationship. Hermione took on the role of the older sister in Harry's life, and even a motherly figure when there's no other adults around. For motherly figures, Harry had Aunt Petunia, who kept him a live, gave him a home, a place to sleep, food, Mrs. Weasley who smothers him, and Hermione who constantly tries to keep him in line. He doens't need a mother for a girlfriend. He needs an equal, and that is Ginny.
Your book arrived this morning ! Soooooo exciting ! I have read the first few chapters and totally love it, its so great to be back in the hp world again with fresh material, even though it obviously isn't the same its just amazing to be back :D
Mum is going mad because my school work was meant to be caught up on tonight...im sure i'll find time for it all, H,AH first though :D:D
Thanks :D
Deena?
How can you say that Harry and Hermione have a stronger relationship than anyone else after the chapters where Ron is gone. They don't speak. She cries over him. And he looks at Ginny's dot for comfort. How is that strongest?
Yes it's good, yes it's strong, but they both need Ron...Hermione even more so. So to say Harry and Hermione are the pinnacle, especially after reading these quote from JKR basically saying Hermione NEEDS Ron (not Harry)?
It's unfathomable to me.
Everyone has been posting such kind, considerate posts. This is the way the shipping conversations should have been from the beginning. So, thank you everyone.
And, thank you for Harry, A History, Melissa! It was a great read for me, made me remember the good times. Now my mom is reading it. She never understood my Harry obsession before and last night I got a call from her saying "Now I get it!!!!" It was amazing.
thanks.
I don't understand why people feel the need to say that certain bonds within the trio are stronger than others. Their relationships are just different, not stronger or weaker. Harry and Hermione have a brother/sister bond, Ron and Harry are like brothers and Ron and Hermione are friends come lovers, which causes unresolved tension leading to clashes.
Harry loves Hermione, in his own words, 'like a sister'. The fact that something could have happened between Harry and Hermione while Ron was gone should tell people something. It would have been so easy for them, alone, in the middle of a horrifying war, not knowing if tomorrow would ever come, to seek that sort of comfort in each others arms but despite of all of those circumstances they DIDN'T. Why do you think that is? Do you think it was that perhaps they felt, despite everything that it just wasn't right, it wasn't what or who either of them wanted.
And then of course Ron returns. Harry's realisation when he tells Ron about how there were many nights, in Ron's absense, when he and Hermione didn't even speak (not to mention Hermione's devastation) is significant. As Harry stands there he realises how much Ron leaving affected them which points to him having felt that something was missing while alone with Hermione. This is testament to the importance of Ron's friendship/love for Harry AND Hermione. Harry also realises that Ron came back DESPITE thinking that he wasn't needed or wanted, which shows extraordinary loyalty and courage and Harry forgives Ron immediately. Hermione's reaction to Ron's return is that of a betrayed lover, and this means of course that it's harder for her to forgive than for Harry.
I could go on and on, but my point is that I find it ludicrous to rank or rate the bonds between the main characters instead of just accepting that they mean different things. We have different relationships with different people and we don't share each and every experience with every significant person in our lives. Harry and Hermione share some intense, emotional moments, but so do Harry and Ron AND Ron and Hermione during the series.
Jo Rowling knew how the series would end and built up the interaction between the characters ackordingly. Our interpretation is always going to be secondary to that, but the significance of certain events in the books become even clearer once you know how things turned out.
I loved your comment, Kavitha! Everything you said about Ron, So true:D Ron completely deserves Hermione...but you know what? Hermione should have shown outrightly from the beginning that she loved Ron. The problem was she did it so subtly in a her own way that I loved, but many people that I know couldnt grasp who Hermione truly likes, lol.
I was going through all the comments here.. and one of them really had the potential of stopping these unbelievable shipping wars!
"we're in Harry's head" by eruditewitch:)
Don't you think that this pretty much summarises everything? since the entire series is told through Harry's point of view, wouldn't Jo Rowling have given atleast one iota of a hint if it had been Harry/Hermione? I'm not saying H/H shippers are "delusional" or something(things could've gone either way if Rowling wanted, mind) but don't you think its high time you wake up to reality?
I'll accept, i'm a hardcore Ron/Hermione shipper. Before anyone spits out hate comments towards me, I would just like to clarify one small thing.
If you support H/H, go right ahead. But please don't say that Ron doesn't deserve Hermione. That isn't doing justice to him. I know i'm ruddy speaking like Ron's a real person or something, but out of all the characters, it's Ron who always stays in the background, always who is side stepped, always who is never noticed. While reading the 7th book the one part where I cried my eyes out was when he gets tortured by the locket, because that was our first major glimpse of his insecurities that ran so deep within him. Harry and Hermione are best friends, yes, but they need Ron to glue them together. And that's the reason the chapters where Ron doesn't appear in the 7th book(when he walks out) are some of the darkest chapters. I personally feel that he is one of the most beautifully created characters in English literature. So lets not pull him into dirty shipping wars because he deserves every bit of Hermione and her love :)
Oh, and Melissa I love your book!!! :)
The last book provided so many amazing scenes between Herminone and Harry. Hermione was the only one all along that understood him on any level. I honestly didn't buy into the whole Harry/Hermione shipping before the last book, but about three quarters through Deathly Hallows I was like "WHAT! JKR is going to do Hermione/Harry!" (I was wrong, of course.)
In fact, the only reason I wouldn't have been happy with a Hermione/Harry relationship (if it happened) was because of Ron's feelings. It would've crushed the guy! But Harry and Hermione have a MUCH stronger bond than Hermione and Ron do.
And honestly, I was a bit disappointed in the Ginny/Harry relationship. So she's fiesty and had Voldemort possess her once, so what? How does that make her a good match for Harry? I'm still struggling with it! She didn't get enough book time to be Harry's soul mate.
Marjorie Dawson - It's arrived :P
Boarders Bookshop has them. The one in Albany (Auckland) has 15, well 14 now :P
I am SO looking forward to reading HaH, I have been reading all the blog posts and stuff but, so far, it hasnpt reached New Zealand. I may put the money into the US economy and buy it from Amazon.
uhmm..i'm just gonna take the oportunity to congratulate you for your book, reading it meant a lot to me, i wish you the best on whatever must come now, good luck :)
Regarding Mr. Bowling's erudite post, I have to add that another trope often found in literature is the sparring lovers. If a man and woman hate each other and fight often, they usually end up as lovers. Think about "Much Ado About Nothing," "Pride and Prejudice," or "Wuthering Heights." And I think it's difficult to argue that the "media is instilling a different cognitive map than literature." What about "Star Wars"? Han and Leia are almost exact precursors of Ron and Hermione.
Just a small note on the hero/heroine dynamic.
I think Jo Rowling's strength is the complexity of her characters. They are all (more or less)flawed human beings and they are NOT stereotypes. Therefore there is no reason for Harry and Hermione to fall into that pattern. Because it's such a long series of books there was time to develop the main characters and steer towards the destiny that was intended for them. In a shorter story it would have been neater to have the hero and heroine hook up (and diminishing Ron's role to that of funny sidekick). As it is there was no need for a classic hero/heroine story, Harry and Hermione didn't need to be confined by the format of the traditional romance and were free to make their own choices!
However, I do agree with Eric Bowling that there has been a tendency in the movies, to focus on the H/Hr relationship, and even though it's never portrayed as a romantic one it is still done at the cost of the R/Hr dynamic AND it also seems to overshadow Ron and Harry's wonderful friendship.
Just finished the book.
Absolutly amazing!!!
The second half was best, i thinkk because that was the part I was in the fandom for :P
You kinda repeated yourself alot,but I still loved it :D
Just a quick note to Eric Bowling - The spelling is Heresy, not Heracy. Great comment apart from that. I really must get this book soon Melissa.
I think Ron and Hermione are a very realistic pairing. Like Jo said: They each have something that the other needs. Hermione needs someone who can make her relax and laugh, but who also challenges her book-based knowledge. Ron needs someone that challenges HIM to take things more seriously and that makes him believe in himself and his abilities. This is Jo's creation and considering she's stated that Hermione reminds her of her younger self I'm sure she can see why Hermione would fall for Ronald Weasley.
Apart from all this, there's that something that you can't explain between them, call it chemistry or physical attraction but there's that TENSION (the frequent blushing being the most obvious sign of this).
Harry is sweet and brave, but it's easy to forget that because we're in his head, all his actions and moods seem somewhat justified. However, from the point of view of people around him he would've been equally, if not more, difficult than Ron to be around. Harry has mood swings, a traumatic past that haunts him and the constant drama in his life makes him, at times, introvert and brooding. The only one that seems to reach him when he's in that place is Ginny. In short, to Hermione and everyone else, Harry would be as much of a 'git' as Ron sometimes.
So I'd say that Jo has written couples that make perfect sense. People don't always fall for what seems to be the sensible or logical choice either. Hermione and Ron didn't fall in love out of choice, it just happened, and THAT'S the most beautiful part of their love story.
People are free, to disagree of course, but I think that in terms of logic neither of the two boys were necessarily a more sensible choice than the other.
Yep, R/Hr was obvious from very early on, but I will say that based solely on what we see in the books, (not all those months and months of downtime that go on in the characters lives that we DON'T see any of) I just don't think it is all that realistic that Hermione would fall for someone like Ron... but I accept it at face value, and in the final moments of DH we see that Ron, like James and Serius, outgrew his adolescent 'git'-tyness and we all got too see the spark of the compassionate, brave and loyal man that is worthy of becoming Mr. Hermione Granger. :-)
I hate to classify myself as a 'shipper' because while I may enjoy certain pairings, I don't go out of my way to love one more than any other (in Harry Potter, anyway).
But I suppose you could say I was/am a Harry/Hermione shipper. I started reading the books just after GoF came out. I immediately liked Hermione the most, and then Harry, with Ron a very close third. I identified a lot with Hermione. I still do. And Harry was sweet and cared about her as a friend. So why couldn't the nerdy bookworm who had bushy hair and big teeth win over the heart of the hero? I didn't ignore the Ron/Hermione hints, and I too thought they were pretty obvious and somewhat knew, even back then, that Ron/Hermione would end up together. I never ever EVER hated Ron - he's hilarious! - but, just in MY experience reading it, I thought I saw similar hints for Harry/Hermione. Was it so wrong that I could read and interpret the book differently from someone else?
I didn't try looking for an online fandom until HBP came out. I was scared away from the Harry Potter fandon itself by all the shipping stuff. I felt horrible that the people who were like me - who liked the idea of Harry and Hermione as a couple - were thought of as crazy, delusional and/or stupid (mind, I KNOW there are some really crazy H/H fans out there.. but I believe the same is true for all the different 'ships). It sounded like even the author herself thought that. I'll admit to being a little hurt and upset, and way too scared to try and get into the fandom any further for fear of being verbally attacked. And as the later books came out, I even felt a little resentful because it seemed like a double standard was being upheld; it seemed like it was perfectly fine and acceptable to shout out just how much you loved the Sirius/Lupin pairing (the non-canon pairing) and how much you hated Lupin/Tonks (the canon pairing), yet Harry/Hermione was still hated on and harped on for being non-canon and Ron/Hermione was still the golden standard because "it's OBVIOUS don't you even READ the books?!". I just didn't get it.
To this day, I still enjoy Harry/Hermione and think they would have made a cute couple. But I enjoy their close friendship and the brotherly/sisterly love they have for each other in the books. I loved the sweet Ron/Hermione moments in the last two books, and even though I really didn't like Harry/Ginny to begin with, when they kissed for the first time I found myself grinning like a fool because Jo wrote the scene so well that I just got caught up in the emotion of the moment and it was fantastic.
So. Long story short, I like Harry/Hermione. I promise I am not delusional, I read the books, I saw the Ron/Hermione hints for what they were, I don't hate Ron and I like how the canon couples worked out. I hold nothing against anyone for whatever pairings they may or may not like (I personally LOVE the fact that different people can take away different things from the same book; if we all read the books and saw the exact same things and no one ever thought differently, there would be so much less to discuss, wouldn't there?). :)
OOOOH I have Harry a History in my hands, right now... have happen to be in the middl of final exams...but the pull s so strong...jut a couple of chapters...
Thank you Melissa!
katie(New Zealand)
I think that as Harry and Hermione grew up with Muggles, it was much better for them to get married into a Wizards family, so as to be realy part of it and live in this world predominantly.
And as they married into the same family it is much funnier as they are all having a good time, them and their kids also.
Harry and Hermione likes to have company so with the Weasleys they are always in contact with someone as the family is big.
Both Harry and Hermione are only childs, it's marvolous that they now have a huge family to share with.
Thank you Melissa, for sharing some more of your book (that I haven't bought yet).
I came into the HP world rather late, and I didn't know anything about the online fandom until this year (!).
I read the books without any real expectation of romance (and approached the movies the same way, I would read the book first and then watch the corresponding movie). However, Ron and Hermione became obvious very quickly, and I don't think that anyone could REALLY doubt where we were heading from GoF onwards. I'll admit that the R/Hr romance warmed my heart with its passion, confusion and tenderness, so I guess I was, without knowing it, a shipper.
When I heard about the shipping wars I was dumbstruck! It has already been pointed out that the book is from Harry's point of view which means that confused feelings about Hermione would have surfaced at some point were they to be an important part of the story, but I also didn't understand the viciousness about something that really isn't a dominant part of the book.
I don't have a problem with people arguing that Harry and Hermione, are better suited, or that it fits the saga format better that the hero and the heroine hook up but to have the nerve to question Jo on her conclusion.
Again, we're in Harry's head, and one thing that he DOESN'T know enough about to describe, but which is evident in the constant blushing both Ron and Hermione do, is physical attraction. We know about Harry's attraction to Ginny and Cho, but Jo could never really tell us about Ron and Hermione's attraction because of POV (only glimpses like when Ron sees Hermione at Bill and Fleur's wedding)...
Anyway... Wow, I didn't mean to start going into all that. What I'm saying is simply that I never understood the point in arguing about what was in the books, it was always clear as day, but I don't mind discussions about alternatives as long as they're thought through (like Eric Bowling).
I really want to discuss the ship stuff in, say, a part of a forum for this site? Please? Are we getting a forum?
Ah, the shipping wars... I remember thinking the same thing as Emerson - Delusional. And then the Memerson April fools joke, priceless to this day - wonder if that old site is still up...
Yeah, Emerson likes his fights, witness his Wall of Shame on MN. I've been around fandom way too long, as I can remember when this stuff started.
Thanks for the memories, Melissa, and thanks for all your little tidbits you are feeding us! Keep 'em coming!
First, I think you all should go to Sugar Covered Quills to see what that site is really about.
Then, go ahead and read my blog: www.myspace.com/OBHWF.
I haven't updated the site in a while, but you'll read what I've seen on Portkey and Sugar Covered Quills and you'll be shocked.
Not all H/Hr send out death threats or are bad. Not at all. They are some of the most insightful people I know.
But some things are pretty bad. Including the things I saw at the Sugar Covered Quills website forums, and on portkey...even written about me personally!
And you can read all of that on my blog, or just look it up for yourself.
I'm just glad the vitriol has died down. But it is not gone.
Sorry, forgot to link! Post is here:
http://sugarcoveredquills.org/2008/11/06/jk-rowling-admits-that-harry-and-hermione-could-have-gone-that-way/
I read this excerpt from Harry, A History, at Sugar Covered Quills two weeks ago that says JKR didn't necessarily think people were crazy for thinking that Harry and Hermione might end up together:
-edited because the snip is in the book, which is where it should stay, thanks. :)
Personally, I was not a H/Hr shipper, but I think it's unfair to say that this was baseless. And to imply that they are all raving lunatics sending out death threats to R/Hr shippers.
I remember when I first read GoF at age 12, I thought it'd be Harry/Hermione, based on the kiss on his cheek at the end. And then my friend was like, REREAD!, and I did, and I saw the Ron/Hermione goodness (I had no interest in romance at the time, hence my failure to see it in the books).
I understand that people have different preferences, and thus some would prefer Hermione get with Harry. Up to a certain point in the series (MAYBE OotP, at the latest), I get how they think Harry/Hermione MIGHT still have a chance at happening, with all the complex theories they came up with.
But after HBP, and the interview, some of them STILL were holding out hope for Deathly Hallows, and that I don't get. Nor do I understand the hate towards Rowling for not writing the series how they wanted to see it. They're her characters. She can write them however she wants. Get over it.
joan: The Mark Evans scandal is explained on Jo's website.
http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=49
i came into HP around the time of book 4's release and i remember thinking who is going to end up with who but as soon as GOF was released it was obvious (and plus the #2 movie's over-exaggeration of ron and hermione NOT hugging also was a big clue) but what i always wondered about because i came into the fandom after book 6 - is what was/is the mark evans thing? i recently re-read and could see mark evans as a character at the beginning of book 5 but i don't understand what happened there. it wasn't in melissa's excellent book so i'm still confused! i'd love more info on that.
I also came to Harry late in the game. In fact, I had avoided it intentionally for years. Even so, it was very obvious that the actions and reactions of the characters was based on a more realistic pattern. There was never any hint of romantic inclinations between Harry and Hermione. The awkwardness and the polar swings between Ron and Hermi were always more indicative of two young people dealing with a mutual attraction. As has been mentioned by Melissa, either in the book or on the podcast/website, Jo did give harry and Hermione a moment in DH where something could have happened, but I really think that had to do with their deep friendship and the fact that they had only each other to hold onto. But it is clear to me that there was never any real chance for them to be anything more than brother/sister close friends, two people that know each other better than any other knew them and no truly romantic feelings.
I've never understood though, why people felt the need to place an expectation on the characters. It almost seems like a violation of their person. It's like expecting two real life people to follow your desires, because you want it to happen. It just seems arrogant in a way.
I understand how it happens and that it comes from a deep love of the characters, but it still doesn't seem right or fair.
I've been shipping H/Hr for almost 4 years and in all my time on Portkey I never heard any really bad trash talk about JKR in her choice on the H/G relationship. From my years as a dramaturg and doing literary criticism, I read the books in a different way, that being H/Hr. Just as people supported R/Hr before JKR's confirmation due to evidence in the books, I do the same with Harry and Hermione. Partially that's informed by the filmic language of the movies, which I saw first (up to OotP) where the idea of a Hero/Heroine romantic relationship is a trope that has been ingrained in the art style since before DeMille and D.W. Griffith. That style puts Harry and Hermione together more than Hermione and Ron, and that's a big element of the cognitive process of 'shipping. Media can instill a different cognitive map than literature can.
I jokingly refer to HBP as "The Heracy" not because of the Harry/Ginny relationship, but because, in my opinion, HBP wasn't anywhere near the kind of book OotP was. That's just my opinion. I like the way that Harry/Ginny is done in DH- a lot! I personally, don't mind who gets together, as long as for me it's written in a convincing way. In HBP for me, Ginny and Harry doesn't not work on many levels.
This does not mean that people who love HBP or the Harry/Ginny relationship are "bad" or "stupid"! They have different opinions. It's really good to be passionate about something. Without passion the Harry Potter books never would've made it to the light of day. My best friend and I have passionate discussions about H/Hr versus Hr/R and H/G. When we start to get to passionate about it, we know better and disengage from the discussion. Like talking about politics.
Maybe I just see the situation as an opportunity for participatory subjective collectivism rather than a powerplay to characterize a portion of the soul of a literary/pop-culture zeitgeist. Everything is interpretive.
I admire JKR Greatly. But no writer is perfect. Even Shakespeare, Austen, Hugo, and Faulkner have passionate detractors. Sometimes the same people to vehemently dislike one authors works love one of their others. For me "Light in August" is the epitome of literary excellence, capturing the zeitgeist of post-bellum southern experience in a way no other novel or play I have ever read has. "The Sound and the Fury" however, while similar in many ways in stylistics with "Light in August" is for me an impenetrable cenotaph that no matter how many times I read and analyze on any kind of visceral or analytical level, is confusing and annoying to me. I don't look down upon Faulkner any less for "Sound and the Fury" than I look up to him for "Light in August." Nor should fans of non-canon relationships in the Harry Potter universe look down upon those fans of the canon ones, or vice-versa.
Of course, we are very passionate people, epically when it comes to Harry Potter. That is in part what makes the fandom so great, but as we've seen also, that is also what can destroy the fandom, from inside and out.
We'll never all agree on one thing. We should, however, respect each other's feelings if they're rooted in reason.
I am glad to be part of such an intelligent conversation on this subject on this posting page. I respect every individual who has left a comment, and hope they see mine as a statement not meant to be threatening or condescending, but a passionate statement. If I have offended anybody with this, I apologize, as that was in no way my intent.
Of course having said all that about logic and reason and clarity, I'll now say: MELISSA YOU ARE A GODDESS!!!!!
I came to HP after the 4th movie. I went and rented 1-3 and got all the books from the library and read and watch all weekend. The two things that stuck out to me about Ron and Hermione were in COS when Hermione runs into the great hall she hugs Harry but can't hug Ron. To me that spoke volumes about her feelings for Ron. When kids that age like someone they act strange around them they are not sure how to act around each other. Like they say the boy will pull the hair of a girl he likes not one he does not like. Hermione could hug Harry because he was just a friend. The second clue to me about R/H was in POA when she was upset about Buckbeak she clung to Ron not Harry because in times of sorrow you would go to the one you felt the most for to comfort you.
Anyway that is just my take from those days and like some others said I would have been ok with any pairing JKR put together because they are her characters to work with and we just get to go along for the ride.
That is to say, the ship wars were mostly over in the sense that there was less room to speculate about them.
Sorry for leaving out the word 'less.'
Sophie-
The argument for that was that Harry doesn't realize he loves Hermione yet. The H/Hr people though it was going to be a surprise, and that R/Hr was a red herring.
It's just that these weren't romance novels. So why would she take the time to do that?
There was also this theory that Hermione represented alchemic mercury and Harry sulfur, so they are destined.
Which is strange. Because Ron is the Heart, Hermione the Mind, and Harry the soul...
so the alchemy thing really threw me off. It made no sense. And this all happened after HbP!!!
The simple and rather innocent question of "Who is Emerson?" is probably worth an entire podcast. ;-)
zr
Sophie,
Can totally agree with you. I was never a shipper in the true sense of the word but I was a fan of the romance in the books overall. I didn't really care who ended up with whom so long as it was well written & made sense.
Anyway, I came to the series late in the game, after HBP was published & so most questions, at least romance wise, were looking like they were mostly answered. So, even if I had been inclined to enter the ship wars, they were mostly over in the sense that there was still room to speculate about them.
Sorry for posting again, but EruditeWitch said something so true!
"...we're in Harry's head!"
So so true! That might be the arguement to end all arguements. Don't you think Harry would have mentioned it if he suddenly thought Hermione was the only thing he could think of? I think there would at least be a couple of paragraphs in one of the books dedicated to some Shakespearian love declaration. xD
eruditewitch,
Certainly people shouldn't do those sorts of things, but sadly they so often do. People get a little too emotionally invested in a certain thing, whether in novels or even in real life, & get whacked out about it. They then give everybody else who may hold to their basic position a bad name & inhibit a fair hearing for anyone else. It is sad but true.
It's also weird how some people have overlooked the Dursley's abuse of Harry (treating him as a slave, not being encouraging to a child, etc) and, as you say, the double murder.
I am one of those people who put Jo on a pedestal. I am such a fangirl of Jo that when she said "It's uncomfortable on and off the pedestal" it actually hurt (I felt like I was hurting her by putting her on the mental pedestal) xD
When it comes to Emerson you have to understand his sense of humour and his way of looking towards things. Like Jo said, he goes looking for a fight. Personally, I don't care if it became Harry/Hermione. I would accept that, but I was happy when it was made clear it was to be Ron/Hermione because that's where my mind had taken me while reading the books. I didn't know that there was a "ship war" before the Emerson and Melissa Interview after HBP. To be honest, I'd been reading everything from Harry/Hermione to Harry/Draco on the internet and totally dis-associating those fanfics and fangirl discussion with actual canon. I still enjoy fan fiction, but it's not nice when people take it too literally and critisizes one of the most wonderful people in this world, JK Rowling.
(Sometimes when I've surfed the net for a few hours I become worried that my sanity wont survive the HP fandom... xD
Best just to stick to the books and the music, I say.)
I feel I need to comment again.
I made a huge amount of spelling misstakes on my prior post!!!
I meant to say I was on LEAKY, not LEAKING.
and he's a PISCES not PIECES.
I'm at work and I'm distracted.
here's the public blog if you want to know:
www.myspace.com/OBHWF
I am a shipper. I didn't join the debate until after OotP, so the stuff contained in Melissa's book is new to me. But I remember being on leaking, finding the shipping thread, and being absolutely shocked that anyone could think Harry and Hermione had something going on. I mean, we're in Harry's head!
I became a voice for R/Hr shippers on many forums. And I had some pretty terrible things happen to me and said about me because of it.
Do you know that as late as yesterday, I was still hearing that Ron is abusive and not worth Hermione?
The shipping debates are not over. Now the H/Hr people just insult JKR, say she was drunk when she wrote it, say she's sending a bad message to young girls, and even imply that Rose may be Harry's!!!
I have been told that my fiance (now husband) was a farce. That I was with him because he was tall, a redhead, and a pieces and that I am just obsessed with Ron. That's sick. I was sent death threats, accused of overdosing on drugs, and generally assaulted. Someone hacked into my private weblogs..so they are now public.
After reading Melissa's book, I still have an opinion of H/Hr shippers that they aren't very good people.
Certainly people shouldn't have become so bent out of shape over the shipping wars, especially not towards Melissa & definitely not towards JKR. Emerson, though, he went out of his way to twist a knife in the guts of the H/H shippers. Still, one should probably just take his remarks in stride & remember where they come from.
Hmm, I think that "very articulate" man's name might have started with "B", ended with "D," and had 4 letters total. LOL
It's sad to think that parents are quite okay with the concept of a double murder in a childrens book and having no fear that it will corrupt their kids, but introduce subjects of a romantic or sexual matter and they get freaked out.
The comedian George Carlin said he's rather have his kids watching a movie of two people (making love) than killing each other.
I remember my first read of the series - up until Goblet of Fire I thought it might be Harry and Hermione. When Cho was introduced I was pleasently surprised. I remember saying to myself "Isn't that just like life. You have friends and you have romantic interests and they aren't always the same people"
It's sad to think that parents are quite okay with the concept of a double murder in a childrens book and having no fear that it will corrupt their kids, but introduce subjects of a romantic or sexual matter and they get freaked out.
The comedian George Carlin said he's rather have his kids watching a movie of two people (making love) than killing each other.
I remember my first read of the series - up until Goblet of Fire I thought it might be Harry and Hermione. When Cho was introduced I was pleasently surprised. I remember saying to myself "Isn't that just like life. You have friends and you have romantic interests and they aren't always the same people"
The whole "shipper" thing was a mystery to me! I do agree, I too, didn't think Harry and Hermione would actually get together. Of course, I never saw Ginny, as a part either. She was always "little Ginny Weasley" I theorize, with my Son, Husband, even my Brother and his wife. Every time a new book came out, we were talking about "this means that, and why does so-and-so feel that. Who's going to...." as if they are "real people", in a "real" world. We're talking about the "meaning of Beadle The Bard's stories", as we speak! [and we don't even have all of them yet!] Badmouthing Jo, or even one of the characters, in her books, is ridiculous. And even a thought of anything in the HP world, as "bad" or anything that was "a danger to children's innocence" is uncalled for. It's just not there.There are far worse things, out in the world, than the HP series, to be a "danger to children's innocence"
Maya,
Emerson is the webmaster for Mugglenet.com. He and Melissa interviewed JKR in 2005 after Half-Blood Prince came out. You can read the interview here:
http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml
I never relly understood the huge reaction to JKR's comments. She could have made her characters turn into teletubbies to defeat Voldemort if she wanted: that's her right. If you don't like it, write your own story.
Melissa, thanks for posting all of these "outtakes". You have always been generous with your time and knowledge and it is much appreciated.
i'm sorry but who is Emerson? (i'm sorry i just came on board the harry potter fandom in a serious way only a year and half ago).
any way personally i find the all shipping wars redicouls, in any fandom.
Maya
How on earth can an articulate adult presume to tell an author how their fictional story can go?
Especially a fan of said story? If we like the books we should be posting letters of gratitude to the author, if we are turned off them by the turn of events, then the less said the better.
Its not like a restaurant where negative feedback is important for the development of the business. The stories are told and should never be changed for better or worse.
Really the shipping wars were rather a compliment to Jo, because she provided characters that people could get so involved in, and identify with.
I've been reading Melissa's book - love it, btw! - and I honestly still can't get how someone couldn't see how Ron and Hermione needed to be together. They're both so combative, so fired up. Harry, bless him, needs someone strong, but he also needs some peace. Ron and Hermione need a fight. Harry and Hermione have a beautiful relationship - they love each other dearly. But JKR knows that where there's fire...well, there's more fire. And that's what Ron and Hermione are - they just keep burning the house down, but they could hardly care, because it's just too fun.
I've loved these outtakes! Keep 'em coming!
I remember when I was little, I had a conversation with a friend about Harry Potter. I think I was around... 12 or 13, before Book 5 came out in 2003. I was very invested in the theories and plot details, and in no way had any inkling that maybe girls and guys liked each other around that time. (Keep in mind that my more romantic side is still developing... I'm 18 and never had a boyfriend...) My friend kept on going on and on about how Harry and Ginny were meant for each other, and I just didn't give a damn xD
The whole shipping wars and everyone being rude to Jo, Melissa, & Emerson was really sad. Those people saying hateful things made everyone who liked even the tinest thought of H/H look bad. I would have loved H/H to happen but knew it wasn't going to happen and it didn't. Oh well, no reason to tell Jo she's not a good writer or to stop reading Harry Potter. There comes a time when having fun theorizing isn't fun anymore when people act that way. Harry Potter is way too good to cry over a very small plot line.
Thanks for adding that Melissa :)
Mara i love your comment, haha.
Reading about the shipping wars was probably one of my favorite parts in the book. Getting this extra tidbit to it is like sneaking that extra chocolate treat you know will go straight to your hips but you don't give a damn.