Vault #10: Dumbledore and Grindelwald
First things first:
I'm a jerk, I said there'd be a vault entry here about... oh, six years ago. Sorry! It's been an absolutely mad fall, and is settling into an even crazier winter, if only because I am trying to finally break through to book number two's first steps in the real world, and having all the normal spasms and seizures that come with that.
Second, as of right now I am speaking at Georgetown University, my beloved alma mater, tomorrow night (and having a lot of nausea-related symptoms because of it) - however, there are more snowstorms threatening the area and the campus is pretty well snowed under as it is, so I'll have an update soon about whether we're still scheduled. (Update: it has been rescheduled, I will post new dates soon!) (Follow me on Twitter for updates.) I have a real talent for having events in snowstorms; my first Boston area signing was in a blizzard as well and those 35 people who came will live forever in my heart.
It's important to note that Georgetown students and faculty will be allowed in the event FIRST, with seating to the general public opening at 6:45. The Facebook info about the event is here.
And now as promised... a vault entry! I quite like this one. It's another with Jo (as an apology for waiting so long on it), and example of what I wrote about in the book, how we kept talking about canon and not the phenomenon, because we were, let's face it, like two junkies with a fix just out of reach. Had I been in Scotland for two days just to talk about the books we would have spent the entire two days talking about the plot and the themes and the characters and what happened to what character when and why and what would happen in the future. No one was happier than me to research this phenomenon and do the kind of legwork I did leading up, and no one was more thrilled than me to be getting the interview I was getting on that subject - but there were moments, many of them, like this one, that my fannish side just won and I indulged curiosity (then promptly felt guilty and went back to the real work at hand).
Which is how we got to Dumbledore, and his relationship with Grindelwald.
JKR: [re: Grindelwald] I think he was a user and a narcissist and I think someone like that would use it, would use the infatuation. I don't think that he would reciprocate in that way, although he would be as dazzled by Dumbledore as Dumbledore was by him, because he would see in Dumbledore, 'My God, I never knew there was someone as brilliant as me, as talented as me, as powerful as me. Together, we are unstoppable!' So I think he would take anything from Dumbledore to have him on his side.
MA: It reminds me of WICKED, did you ever read WICKED?
JKR: No.
MA: Maguire does retellings of old fairytales and he made a very cerebral book about the Wicked Witch of the West, and Glinda, and how they used to be best friends.
JKR: Oh really...
MA: It's very similar; she went one way to fight injustice and fight the wizard, and Glinda went the other, to be the political figure and play into the system. Really interesting.
JKR: Well, it's the old fallen angel idea in some ways, isn't it? It's God and Lucifer.
MA: I wanted to ask you about that, because Grindelwald resembles - the golden curls, the first person I thought of was Lucifer.
JKR: Mm-hm. So you can call it a fraternal bond, but I think it makes it more tragic for Dumbledore. I also think it makes Dumbledore a little less culpable. I see him as fundamentally a very intellectual, brilliant and precocious person whose emotional life was absolutely subjugated to the life of the mind - by his choice - and then his first foray into the world of emotion is catastrophic and I think that would forevermore stun that part of his life and leave it stultified and he would be, what he becomes. That's what I saw as Dumbledore's past. That's always what I saw was in his past. And he keeps a distance between himself and others through humour, a certain detachment and a frivolity of manner.
But he's also isolated by his brain. He's isolated by the fact he knows so much, guesses so much, guesses correctly. He has to play his cards close to his chest because he doesn't want Voldemort to know what he suspects. Terrible to be Dumbledore, really, by the end he must have thought it would be quite nice to check out and just hope that everything works out well. [Laughter.]
MA: Because he's set up this massive chess game -
JKR: Mm, this massive chess game. But I said to Arthur, my American editor - we had an interesting conversation during the editing of seven - the moment when Harry takes Draco's wand, Arthur said, God, that's the moment when the ownership of the Elder wand is actually transferred? And I said, that's right. He said, shouldn't that be a bit more dramatic? And I said, no, not at all, the reverse. I said to Arthur, I think it really puts the elaborate, grandiose plans of Dumbledore and Voldemort in their place. That actually the history of the wizarding world hinged on two teenage boys wrestling with each other. They weren't even using magic. It became an ugly little corner tussle for the possession of wands. And I really liked that - that very human moment, as opposed to these two wizards who were twitching strings and manipulating and implanting information and husbanding information and guarding information, you know?
Ultimately it just came down to that, a little scuffle and fistfight in the corner and pulling a wand away.
MA: It says a lot about the world at large, I think, about conflict in the world, it's these little things -
JKR: And the difference one individual can make. Always, the difference one individual can make.
I'm so happy I keep checking this site. Thanks for a wonderful vault entry, Mel!!!
Can't wait to hear about your next book too!!!
I too am reading the series for the first time and I'm nearly done. I just got through the wand transfer chapter and I'm enjoying the layering of the Dumbledore character. He's indeed, very well made and dimensional.
I'm getting a 'tough-luck, kid/fate will kick you in the bum' thing as well to go along with the whole 'individuals can make a difference' concept, as they seem to go hand-in-hand here. But, I'm liking it, because it once again proves my theory that the drunken brawl is indeed the mother of all invention.
Thanks so much for sharing this interview (and for explaining to Miss Rowling what Wicked is).
This was incredibly interesting, and really made me think of Dumbledore's storied role as the "Grand Master," to continue the delicious chess metaphor.
I think Dumbledore's essential conflict is between heart and mind, which plays out perfectly in that metaphor. It seems like he was cursed both with a great mind and an equally great heart, and as such he can't help himself from feeling the human struggles and emotions of those who have entangled themselves in the war and placed him on a pedestal as their leader. At the same time, he keeps telling himself that he can't allow himself to "fall" emotionally as he did before, can't allow himself to think of the parts of his plan as anything more than chess pieces, because to do so would cloud his judgment, and I think that's what he fears above all else, what with all that rests on his every decision.
This shows particularly in his interactions with Harry,like when DD told him mournfully that loving Harry too much to tell him his fate was DD's greatest mistake. When you compare the two (Harry and DD, that is) it's interesting to do so through the lens of love: even though DD had immense power, he was convinced that Harry would be able to do what he had not, perhaps because Harry's heart was unscarred by the betrayal that had torn Dumbledore apart.
One more thing, before I run out of comment space: I wonder what Dumbledore would have thought about all his years of planning coming down to a fistfight. I have an image of my mind of a smiling, with, perhaps, a glint of worry in his oh-so-infamously-expressive eyes, and popping a lemon drop in his mouth to properly savor the sweet irony as he rested somewhere beautiful. =)
Great entry, it was very interesting. I had never really realized the God/Lucifer mirror, but it really is an spot on trope, isn't it?
The moment when all those grand schemes pend in a string because Harry and Draco are having a fistfight is one of my favourites. It really is a great moment, and a great way to put both Dumbledore, Snape and Voldemort in their right places.
I really do hope we could have more vaults!
!!!
Just yesterday I was thinking about Grindelwald; wondering if he returned Dumbledore's affection at all or simply used it. I wished that I could ask Ms. Rowling, but felt that I should never presume to bother her again after she so kindly answered my letter last year. Today I popped in to see if there was anything new here... and here was the answer to my question, plus a bit more insight on Dumbledore! Thanks very, very much, Melissa!
I just love reading these snippets of your conversations with J.K. Rowling. Not only are they insightful, but it's an incredible treat to hear it all directly from the creators mouth. Thank you so much for posting these!
Harry is not living a life of the mind and shut off from emotional attachments like Dumbledore, but he is physically isolated from the wizarding world for most of his early life and once he enters that world he's soon socially isolated. Ever since book 7, I've thought this shared feeling of separateness is one of the things that strengths the bond between the two.
And I agree with Maggie about having pity for Dumbledore. Not only has he had an exceptionally hard life, but he had no one to share his grief with. It's a wonder he didn't go insane.
A great entry! Worth waiting for, indeed. And, yeah, you've been a little busy, especially with #hhh just wrapping up this past weekend. So totally understandable!
(I just realized I used a # for hhh out of habit. Ah well. It stays, says I!)
I really love that Jo subverted the whole chessmaster trope in such a "normal" way: a teenage boy and his rival are punching each other in the face. One steals something from the other. Voila: history changed. Because that's how it works in real life, right?
She also hits on Dumbledore's isolation. As awesome as Albus is, I really do feel quite a pity of pity for him. Until Grindewald, he never had a "best mate;" he and Doge were friends, but not quite on the same footing. Humans are made for community and close relationships. We crave it. It would seriously suck to be so isolated by your own success and brilliance. Granted, there's a dollop of immaturity and selfishness too, but that's normal for everyone, especially a teenager.
Over at Jess's blog (she's reading the series for very first time! And has some insightful commentary along the way)she hits on this very point: Dumbledore is more believable, human, and beloved BECAUSE he has flaws, not in spite of them. Perfect characters are boring. (ie. every horrible Mary Sue fanfic ever written.) People need conflict.
And it's totally the Lucifer trope, I think. Archetypes are classic because... um, well, they're older than dirt. Beauty attracts. Good villains are appealing at first (Sauron in LotR is described as incredibly beautiful in the Silmarillion. Lucifer was God's most beautiful and talented angel.) Grindewald was exactly who Dumbledore needed in his life, so he was willing to ignore his flaws.
How appropriate: rather than scheming and manipulation, it "all comes down to the difference one person can make." Welcome to the HPA!
Melissa, I know it's later in NY than it is in LA but it's not the 10th yet! lol! Anyway good luck at Georgetown, you'll be great! Thanks for that excerpt. I thought the same thing you did about the golden curls.
Very insightful Vault entry. The fallen angel. God/Lucifer; Dumbledore/Grindewald..wow. And hey, Melissa, best of luck to you at Georgetown.